|
Post by beefus on Apr 15, 2017 16:56:53 GMT
No one is disputing Rossi's talent and class. His status was such that he had became the GOAT, the man everyone listened to, the guy who's career had made him legendary. Even during his many spats with rivals throughout his career. Max Biaggi became the villain and was demonized by everyone except Mekon and his loyal fans for the various on and off track incidents which tracked their careers, even when Rossi was in the wrong he was seen as being right. Then came Sete Gibernau, he was a genuine rival and a contender until Jerez 2005, last corner. Only blinkered Rossi supporters would say it was a racing incident. He effectively used Sete's bike as a brake, pushed him wide and took the win thank you very much. Gibernau was on a hiding to nothing as Rossi's status meant the incident would be brushed aside. Next up Casey Stoner, a serious contender, then world champion, not afraid to criticize Valentino publicly ("ambition outweighed your talent") and on track incidents like Laguna Seca's corkscrewgate divided opinion, but again Valentino's reputation was unscathed. Even when he tried his hand at sorting out the unrideable Ducati and suffered humiliation, it was generally accepted that the blame lay with Ducati for failing to correct the handling problems. History tells us that Rossi went back to Yamaha, became competitive again, and so the problem wasn't the rider after all. The big moment, the turning point, was Sepang 2015 when Rossi's incredibly solid reputation was imo destroyed by one incident. In fact Rossi could have and should have said fuck all at the previous round in Philip Island, but by accusing Marquez of conspiring to help Lorenzo win the title, he gave Marquez a reason to do what he did at Sepang. I believe Marquez was totally out of order by riding the way he did but Rossi lost it, and his reputation by deliberately forcing him off the track in such a blatant manner. Many posters on banzai turned on Rossi after that, and far from being anti Rossi as Hopper makes out, i just think as race fans it was seen as a crazy move which not only cost him the title, but for me any respect i had for him. He was, and still is a legendary rider, but i lost a huge amount of respect for him that day. Sorry, but not way was Jerez 2005 over the ling, as Rossi most certainly didn't use Sete's bike as a brake. There were a couple of angles that clearly showed that Rossi stuck his bike in there, went ever so slightly wide, but was already turned and heading toward the apex when Sete ran into him. It was as much (if not more) Sete's fault than Rossi's, since Sete simply mucked up the re-overtake. It's a situation you will see 5 times (or more) in just about every 125/Moto3 race, where the guy who led into the corner simply accelerates back through up the inside of the guy who came in hot and went a little wide. As for Laguna, I've said a few times that what Rossi did there was wrong, and he should have had some sort of penalty (or have given the spot back immediately, which he sort of did, but not intentionally). Rossi cut the track there, plain and simple. He had both tires beyond the curbs and in the dirt, and that should be seen as an infraction. Everything else he did during that super entertaining race was fine (duffing up Stoner who was something like a full second quicker on raw pace), but that one move at the corkscrew was not OK, and I was similarly disgusted by the fact that people were actually using it to confirm Rossi's legendary status. He shouldn't have been encouraged for that. He also looked at little sheepish to me when he first arrived in parc firme after that race, thinking he might get admonished, but instead everyone was fawning over him so he just embraced it. The end result, of course, was MM doing the same thing a few years later (even further off track and seemingly more deliberately), and everyone just shrugging their shoulders. The less said about Sepang, at this point, the better, since most of us will never be in agreement. Suffice to say that responsibility also lies with Dorna/race direction, for letting things get to that point. It was pretty clear that Rossi came to the conclusion that he had to take matters into his own hands, because nobody else was going to tell the kid to calm the fuck down. Rossi went "ever so slightly wide"??....lol....watch it again,he nearly hit the green stuff, he was about a meter away from the white line. Hardly "ever so slightly wide"!!. Now go watch the racing line done properly.....
|
|
|
Post by hoppur on Apr 17, 2017 17:00:37 GMT
Wow, I can't believe some of you are still getting this so twisted. The contact (where Sete came into Rossi) took place on the very inside of the track, just a bit before the apex. Rossi ended up going out toward the outside white line, but only after Sete hit him and forced him to stand the bike up a little and run wide. I've seen the replay and I'm familiar with the racing line. Sete rode into Rossi when he didn't need to. He could likely have just slipped right back up underneath him with much better drive out of the corner (like you see/saw in the 125cc/Moto3 races on every fucking lap). Sete's racecraft was lacking there. End of 10 year long story...
|
|
|
Post by neilf on Apr 17, 2017 19:37:32 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting that Sete could have somehow altered his line? He was already riding a defensive, tighter line into the final corner (note how much room there is to his right) when Rossi arrowed in and barged him out of the way (approx. 50s);
|
|
gary
Junior Member
Posts: 66
|
Post by gary on Apr 18, 2017 2:04:15 GMT
Just rewatched it. Rossi was totally in the wrong.
|
|
|
Post by beefus on Apr 18, 2017 6:46:01 GMT
Wow, I can't believe some of you are still getting this so twisted. The contact (where Sete came into Rossi) took place on the very inside of the track, just a bit before the apex. Rossi ended up going out toward the outside white line, but only after Sete hit him and forced him to stand the bike up a little and run wide. I've seen the replay and I'm familiar with the racing line. Sete rode into Rossi when he didn't need to. He could likely have just slipped right back up underneath him with much better drive out of the corner (like you see/saw in the 125cc/Moto3 races on every fucking lap). Sete's racecraft was lacking there. End of 10 year long story... And I can't believe you don't see it for what it was...Rossi was too fast into the corner, had Gibernau not been there Rossi would have gone even wider. Gibernau was on the racing line, Rossi wasn't. Similar to Marquez/Lorenzo incident in 2013, although it looked they both took a wider line into the corner...
|
|
|
Post by paulg on Apr 18, 2017 8:57:16 GMT
Its only luck they both didn't fall off...You see lads come off for much less contact (Danny Buchan on that back marker at the weekend for example...) Regardless of fault, it was bloody great entertainment and for me it was just borderline dangerous riding. This aint ballroom dancing
|
|
|
Post by hoppur on Apr 18, 2017 23:09:21 GMT
Wow, I can't believe some of you are still getting this so twisted. The contact (where Sete came into Rossi) took place on the very inside of the track, just a bit before the apex. Rossi ended up going out toward the outside white line, but only after Sete hit him and forced him to stand the bike up a little and run wide. I've seen the replay and I'm familiar with the racing line. Sete rode into Rossi when he didn't need to. He could likely have just slipped right back up underneath him with much better drive out of the corner (like you see/saw in the 125cc/Moto3 races on every fucking lap). Sete's racecraft was lacking there. End of 10 year long story... And I can't believe you don't see it for what it was...Rossi was too fast into the corner, had Gibernau not been there Rossi would have gone even wider. Gibernau was on the racing line, Rossi wasn't. Similar to Marquez/Lorenzo incident in 2013, although it looked they both took a wider line into the corner... I really don't understand what you guys are looking. Yes, Rossi left his braking late in order to get alongside. YES, he has the right to do so. Yes, he was still going to make the corner. No, he did not use Gibernau as a brake. Yes, the contact made Rossi lift up and run a little wider than he would have. Now, Rossi left it late and put his bike in a spot he had every right to put it into. At that point it was up to Sete to figure out a way to stay in front of him. Instead Sete simply rode into Rossi, as if he wasn't there. Rossi HAS THE RIGHT to put his bike there. Rossi did NOT hit Sete! Sete turned into Rossi. Sete was not already at full lean and on a line when the contact was made. He expected Rossi to back off and cede the space, but Rossi didn't. How the hell are you not seeing this?
|
|
|
Post by hoppur on Apr 18, 2017 23:42:58 GMT
This video is pretty good (first few seconds are black, for some reason, although there may be audio that I can't hear at work).
Look how close Rossi is to the inside line, compared to Marquez. Look at the overhead shot! Clearly Sete turned into Rossi. Clearly Rossi's trajectory changed AFTER the contact was made. Clearly Rossi was going to make the corner with no problem before the contact was made. Look at the trajectory of Rossi's bike before Sete hit him!
(The best angle is at 2:13 in)
|
|
|
Post by neilf on Apr 19, 2017 7:51:25 GMT
Whatever Hoppur.
It's like arguing with a child who has "clearly" shat himself; they keep denying it, even though the stink is overwhelming, shite dripping on his socks and sandals!
If the roles had been reversed you would be harping on about how Sete torpedoed Rossi out of the way, blinded by home race glory!
You keep trying to find a video which backs up your yellow tinted viewpoint regarding this incident, because you aren't going to find one.
Unbiased my arse!
|
|
|
Post by bella on Apr 19, 2017 14:51:00 GMT
Its there for any unbiased fan to see, Gibernau took the usual wider racing line which does leave him open for an attack and Rossi tried to stick it inside but didn't quite pull it off and ended up punting Gibernau out of his way.
Maybe not quite as bad as Simoncelli on Pedrosa at Le Mans, or Capirossi on Harada in Argentina but Rossi is definitely guilty in Jerez.
|
|
|
Post by hoppur on Apr 19, 2017 18:14:28 GMT
Whatever Hoppur. It's like arguing with a child who has "clearly" shat himself; they keep denying it, even though the stink is overwhelming, shite dripping on his socks and sandals! If the roles had been reversed you would be harping on about how Sete torpedoed Rossi out of the way, blinded by home race glory! You keep trying to find a video which backs up your yellow tinted viewpoint regarding this incident, because you aren't going to find one. Unbiased my arse! You have trouble with me looking for a video of the actual event that took place? Do you not like facts? The video most often seen is from the front, with both riders directly approaching the camera. This angle is interesting, but also severely limited. And, really, if you (nor anyone else) can look at the overhead shot and still say with a serious face that Rossi "torpedoed" Sete, or did anything at all that was over the line, then you understand exactly fuck all about bike racing. It's cut and fucking dry. Rossi puts his bike in there, turns in to take his line through the corner, and Sete then turns into him and hits him. It's CLEAR TO FUCKING SEE
|
|
|
Post by matt989 on Apr 19, 2017 19:01:02 GMT
It's CLEAR TO FUCKING SEE It's also 12 FUCKING YEARS AGO!
|
|
|
Post by roobarb on Apr 19, 2017 20:18:15 GMT
In other news; hoppur's avatar depicts a solido dirty sanchez, yeah?
|
|
|
Post by neilf on Apr 19, 2017 20:56:00 GMT
Really Hoppur! Resorting to swearing; and in capitals to boot!
Rossi isn't aiming at an apex, he is aiming at an ever reducing gap, carrying too much corner speed; Gibernau turned into the corner using a defensive line, to find a out of control rider. Rossi's body language on the bike is one of a rider who knows that he has cocked up; he's tense, waiting for the impact.
That's my interpretation of the events. If you disagree, then fair enough; there's no need to get your knickers in a twist if someone questions or argues against your point of view with a logical and well thought out counter argument.
|
|
|
Post by no66 on Apr 20, 2017 7:11:57 GMT
Hoppur46, IF as you say "Rossi puts his bike in there, turns in to take his line through the corner" then would hardly be any contact.
Yes SG turned in, but VR played it dirty (or had to) and go wide forcing SG way off.
|
|