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Post by neilf on Mar 30, 2017 15:48:12 GMT
No one on here has ever said that Rossi has mediocre talent; his skills are there for all to see. To be his age and still be challenging for a championship is outstanding; but he is getting old for a motorcycle racer and there will, inevitably, be younger, hungrier and, dare I say it, more talented riders moving up through the ranks. Examples of the latter include Stoner and Marc M. who have more natural, raw talent then Rossi ever had IMO. JL, on the other hand, is on a par with Rossi.
Without going over old ground, I completely disagree with you regarding the 2015 championship; there was no conspiracy theory and, IMO, I think that the situation and pressure got to Rossi. He deliberately ran MM to the edge of the track and that is not sporting. IF MM was deliberately holding the Italian up, that again is not sporting, but that did not give VR the right to do what he did. But this is all my opinion; Rossi cracked and was penalised for a ridiculous and, quite frankly, dangerous maneuver.
"How dangerous it is is another question, since they did manage to race for what, 50 plus years without them?"
You could say the same about back protectors until the were introduced; but now they are compulsory. Would you ride on a track without one? I know that i wouldn't; hell, I don't every ride on the road without one.
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gary
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by gary on Mar 30, 2017 20:44:25 GMT
Am I the only one who has stopped reading Hoppur's posts?
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Post by Yellow Muppet on Mar 30, 2017 21:24:34 GMT
Hoppur you've grown soft over the years...I actually sense compassion from your statements.
I agree with your stance on the Rossi, Marquez situation and I feel most here who disagree are simply trolling. They cant really be that stupid.
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Post by norbs on Mar 30, 2017 22:12:11 GMT
Who let David W in?
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Post by beefus on Mar 31, 2017 7:12:21 GMT
No one on here has ever said that Rossi has mediocre talent; his skills are there for all to see. To be his age and still be challenging for a championship is outstanding; but he is getting old for a motorcycle racer and there will, inevitably, be younger, hungrier and, dare I say it, more talented riders moving up through the ranks. Examples of the latter include Stoner and Marc M. who have more natural, raw talent then Rossi ever had IMO. JL, on the other hand, is on a par with Rossi. Without going over old ground, I completely disagree with you regarding the 2015 championship; there was no conspiracy theory and, IMO, I think that the situation and pressure got to Rossi. He deliberately ran MM to the edge of the track and that is not sporting. IF MM was deliberately holding the Italian up, that again is not sporting, but that did not give VR the right to do what he did. But this is all my opinion; Rossi cracked and was penalised for a ridiculous and, quite frankly, dangerous maneuver. "How dangerous it is is another question, since they did manage to race for what, 50 plus years without them?"You could say the same about back protectors until the were introduced; but now they are compulsory. Would you ride on a track without one? I know that i wouldn't; hell, I don't every ride on the road without one. Yep...nobody on MB disputes his greatness. But they also don't jump up and down accusing riders (i.e mainly MM in your case Hoppur) of make so-called dodgy passes on other riders (i.e Iannone) that Dorna should be penalising him for. Nobody would bat an eyelid if VR had made that pass because there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with it. If fact it wasn't so different from Rossi's pass on Lorenzo at Misano last year when JL went off the racing line...again, nothing wrong with it. The fact that you try to make something of it because its MM (who you clearly dislike) shows your bias... I think most on here would be happy to see VR win number 10, a fitting end to an amazing career......and hardly anti-Rossi. And just to show my non anti-Rossi bias I've changed my avatar to another great pic, this time of VR getting his elbow down. ;-)
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Post by hoppur on Mar 31, 2017 18:59:57 GMT
No one on here has ever said that Rossi has mediocre talent; his skills are there for all to see. To be his age and still be challenging for a championship is outstanding; but he is getting old for a motorcycle racer and there will, inevitably, be younger, hungrier and, dare I say it, more talented riders moving up through the ranks. Examples of the latter include Stoner and Marc M. who have more natural, raw talent then Rossi ever had IMO. JL, on the other hand, is on a par with Rossi. Without going over old ground, I completely disagree with you regarding the 2015 championship; there was no conspiracy theory and, IMO, I think that the situation and pressure got to Rossi. He deliberately ran MM to the edge of the track and that is not sporting. IF MM was deliberately holding the Italian up, that again is not sporting, but that did not give VR the right to do what he did. But this is all my opinion; Rossi cracked and was penalised for a ridiculous and, quite frankly, dangerous maneuver. "How dangerous it is is another question, since they did manage to race for what, 50 plus years without them?"You could say the same about back protectors until the were introduced; but now they are compulsory. Would you ride on a track without one? I know that i wouldn't; hell, I don't every ride on the road without one. Stoner had tons of raw talent, but it's hard to compare his to Rossi's. I mean, Rossi did much better in the lower categories, while Stoner generally just crashed his brains out. Maybe that ties in to the mental factor, where we see Rossi having been at the sharp end for a couple of decades now, while Stoner threw in the towel after a few alternating seasons at the front, so talking pure talent is hard to do. Ditton with MM, since he is the king of electronic aids, and he looks quite ordinary when the Honda isn't on point. Rossi's move on MM at Sepang dangerous? Surely you jest. They had slowed down well under race pace, and he guided him off into a paved runoff area. I'd say MM throwing his bike around like a twat at full racing speed was surely more dangerous. And comparing back protectors to rain lights isn't exactly the best analogy. Obviously having rain lights is better than not having them, but my point is that we hadn't seen a rash of riders rear-ending other riders in the rain prior to their introduction, so a half race without it on a single bike isn't exactly insane. It's like the little brake lever protectors they have introduced. Great idea, and they shouldn't ever race without them going forward, but if a rider's protector falls off on the opening lap of a race, I don't think he needs to be brought in. Aw man, that hurts Gary B. I'm just trying to get some conversation going in here. It's far too quiet and dull between races. My compliments on the new pic! As for my criticism of MM's passing and riding, it's mostly to do with his history of being a bit over-aggressive. Which is all fine and well, but my complaints then stem from the treatment that a certain M. Simoncelli got from Dorna for riding the same way. The Spanish organizers were tripping all over themselves to put Marco down and console their golden little baby-dolls Lorenzo and Pedrosa. Some of us don't have such short memories...
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Post by pantah on Apr 1, 2017 14:23:43 GMT
No one is disputing Rossi's talent and class. His status was such that he had became the GOAT, the man everyone listened to, the guy who's career had made him legendary. Even during his many spats with rivals throughout his career. Max Biaggi became the villain and was demonized by everyone except Mekon and his loyal fans for the various on and off track incidents which tracked their careers, even when Rossi was in the wrong he was seen as being right. Then came Sete Gibernau, he was a genuine rival and a contender until Jerez 2005, last corner. Only blinkered Rossi supporters would say it was a racing incident. He effectively used Sete's bike as a brake, pushed him wide and took the win thank you very much. Gibernau was on a hiding to nothing as Rossi's status meant the incident would be brushed aside. Next up Casey Stoner, a serious contender, then world champion, not afraid to criticize Valentino publicly ("ambition outweighed your talent") and on track incidents like Laguna Seca's corkscrewgate divided opinion, but again Valentino's reputation was unscathed. Even when he tried his hand at sorting out the unrideable Ducati and suffered humiliation, it was generally accepted that the blame lay with Ducati for failing to correct the handling problems. History tells us that Rossi went back to Yamaha, became competitive again, and so the problem wasn't the rider after all. The big moment, the turning point, was Sepang 2015 when Rossi's incredibly solid reputation was imo destroyed by one incident. In fact Rossi could have and should have said fuck all at the previous round in Philip Island, but by accusing Marquez of conspiring to help Lorenzo win the title, he gave Marquez a reason to do what he did at Sepang. I believe Marquez was totally out of order by riding the way he did but Rossi lost it, and his reputation by deliberately forcing him off the track in such a blatant manner. Many posters on banzai turned on Rossi after that, and far from being anti Rossi as Hopper makes out, i just think as race fans it was seen as a crazy move which not only cost him the title, but for me any respect i had for him. He was, and still is a legendary rider, but i lost a huge amount of respect for him that day.
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Post by armstrongracer on Apr 1, 2017 16:48:28 GMT
From what I saw Zarco is the real deal. Sone pundits are putting it down as a crash or caviar ride. I wasnt trackside and it may look different but on my feed he looked like he belonged there. Non-aliens that run near the front (Cal, Espargo's, Scott, Hector) always look like a crash waiting to happen to me, Zarco looked like he knew what he was doing. Its easy to forget that in Moto2 he had the ability to pull the pin in the last few laps with shot tyres. That skill translates well to motogp. Have we another alien in waiting.
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Post by beefus on Apr 1, 2017 19:35:46 GMT
From what I saw Zarco is the real deal. Sone pundits are putting it down as a crash or caviar ride. I wasnt trackside and it may look different but on my feed he looked like he belonged there. Non-aliens that run near the front (Cal, Espargo's, Scott, Hector) always look like a crash waiting to happen to me, Zarco looked like he knew what he was doing. Its easy to forget that in Moto2 he had the ability to pull the pin in the last few laps with shot tyres. That skill translates well to motogp. Have we another alien in waiting. Not sure about alien in waiting, but I'll be happy to be proven wrong. He's smooth, and as you say, seems to be able to find something extra in the final stages of a race.
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Post by beefus on Apr 1, 2017 19:38:37 GMT
No one is disputing Rossi's talent and class. His status was such that he had became the GOAT, the man everyone listened to, the guy who's career had made him legendary. Even during his many spats with rivals throughout his career. Max Biaggi became the villain and was demonized by everyone except Mekon and his loyal fans for the various on and off track incidents which tracked their careers, even when Rossi was in the wrong he was seen as being right. Then came Sete Gibernau, he was a genuine rival and a contender until Jerez 2005, last corner. Only blinkered Rossi supporters would say it was a racing incident. He effectively used Sete's bike as a brake, pushed him wide and took the win thank you very much. Gibernau was on a hiding to nothing as Rossi's status meant the incident would be brushed aside. Next up Casey Stoner, a serious contender, then world champion, not afraid to criticize Valentino publicly ("ambition outweighed your talent") and on track incidents like Laguna Seca's corkscrewgate divided opinion, but again Valentino's reputation was unscathed. Even when he tried his hand at sorting out the unrideable Ducati and suffered humiliation, it was generally accepted that the blame lay with Ducati for failing to correct the handling problems. History tells us that Rossi went back to Yamaha, became competitive again, and so the problem wasn't the rider after all. The big moment, the turning point, was Sepang 2015 when Rossi's incredibly solid reputation was imo destroyed by one incident. In fact Rossi could have and should have said fuck all at the previous round in Philip Island, but by accusing Marquez of conspiring to help Lorenzo win the title, he gave Marquez a reason to do what he did at Sepang. I believe Marquez was totally out of order by riding the way he did but Rossi lost it, and his reputation by deliberately forcing him off the track in such a blatant manner. Many posters on banzai turned on Rossi after that, and far from being anti Rossi as Hopper makes out, i just think as race fans it was seen as a crazy move which not only cost him the title, but for me any respect i had for him. He was, and still is a legendary rider, but i lost a huge amount of respect for him that day. Any mention of Jerez and Laguna will be met with "it was a racing incident " by the diehard muppets....but put the shoe on the other foot and replace Rossi with Marquez and they would be apoplectic. As as to the entirety of your post...spot on.
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Post by roobarb on Apr 1, 2017 19:46:05 GMT
Am I the only one who has stopped reading Hoppur's posts? I never started. I'm beginning to wish that I had.
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Post by neilf on Apr 3, 2017 7:48:00 GMT
And comparing back protectors to rain lights isn't exactly the best analogy. Obviously having rain lights is better than not having them, but my point is that we hadn't seen a rash of riders rear-ending other riders in the rain prior to their introduction, so a half race without it on a single bike isn't exactly insane. It's like the little brake lever protectors they have introduced. Great idea, and they shouldn't ever race without them going forward, but if a rider's protector falls off on the opening lap of a race, I don't think he needs to be brought in. Granted, it wasn't the best analogy, but if a risk was identified why wait until there is a "... rash of riders rear-ending other..."? It's good so see MotoGP being pro-active. The "Rossi" situation with regards to the rear light falling/not being turned on, would have been a judgement call based on the conditions. As for the brake lever protectors, they are weather dependant; if one falls off during the race and a rider isn't brought in, why bother fitting them in the first place?
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Post by neilf on Apr 3, 2017 12:53:18 GMT
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Post by bella on Apr 3, 2017 15:08:28 GMT
No one on here has ever said that Rossi has mediocre talent; his skills are there for all to see. To be his age and still be challenging for a championship is outstanding; but he is getting old for a motorcycle racer and there will, inevitably, be younger, hungrier and, dare I say it, more talented riders moving up through the ranks. Examples of the latter include Stoner and Marc M. who have more natural, raw talent then Rossi ever had IMO. JL, on the other hand, is on a par with Rossi. Without going over old ground, I completely disagree with you regarding the 2015 championship; there was no conspiracy theory and, IMO, I think that the situation and pressure got to Rossi. He deliberately ran MM to the edge of the track and that is not sporting. IF MM was deliberately holding the Italian up, that again is not sporting, but that did not give VR the right to do what he did. But this is all my opinion; Rossi cracked and was penalised for a ridiculous and, quite frankly, dangerous maneuver. "How dangerous it is is another question, since they did manage to race for what, 50 plus years without them?"You could say the same about back protectors until the were introduced; but now they are compulsory. Would you ride on a track without one? I know that i wouldn't; hell, I don't every ride on the road without one. Stoner had tons of raw talent, but it's hard to compare his to Rossi's. I mean, Rossi did much better in the lower categories, while Stoner generally just crashed his brains out. Maybe that ties in to the mental factor, where we see Rossi having been at the sharp end for a couple of decades now, while Stoner threw in the towel after a few alternating seasons at the front, so talking pure talent is hard to do. Ditton with MM, since he is the king of electronic aids, and he looks quite ordinary when the Honda isn't on point. Rossi's move on MM at Sepang dangerous? Surely you jest. They had slowed down well under race pace, and he guided him off into a paved runoff area. I'd say MM throwing his bike around like a twat at full racing speed was surely more dangerous. And comparing back protectors to rain lights isn't exactly the best analogy. Obviously having rain lights is better than not having them, but my point is that we hadn't seen a rash of riders rear-ending other riders in the rain prior to their introduction, so a half race without it on a single bike isn't exactly insane. It's like the little brake lever protectors they have introduced. Great idea, and they shouldn't ever race without them going forward, but if a rider's protector falls off on the opening lap of a race, I don't think he needs to be brought in. Aw man, that hurts Gary B. I'm just trying to get some conversation going in here. It's far too quiet and dull between races. My compliments on the new pic! As for my criticism of MM's passing and riding, it's mostly to do with his history of being a bit over-aggressive. Which is all fine and well, but my complaints then stem from the treatment that a certain M. Simoncelli got from Dorna for riding the same way. The Spanish organizers were tripping all over themselves to put Marco down and console their golden little baby-dolls Lorenzo and Pedrosa. Some of us don't have such short memories... Bleating on and on about about supposed pro spanish bias, yet forgetting the many Italian transgressions over the years, including the two "dirty" Capirossi titles on 125 & 250s.
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Post by hoppur on Apr 10, 2017 15:32:17 GMT
No one is disputing Rossi's talent and class. His status was such that he had became the GOAT, the man everyone listened to, the guy who's career had made him legendary. Even during his many spats with rivals throughout his career. Max Biaggi became the villain and was demonized by everyone except Mekon and his loyal fans for the various on and off track incidents which tracked their careers, even when Rossi was in the wrong he was seen as being right. Then came Sete Gibernau, he was a genuine rival and a contender until Jerez 2005, last corner. Only blinkered Rossi supporters would say it was a racing incident. He effectively used Sete's bike as a brake, pushed him wide and took the win thank you very much. Gibernau was on a hiding to nothing as Rossi's status meant the incident would be brushed aside. Next up Casey Stoner, a serious contender, then world champion, not afraid to criticize Valentino publicly ("ambition outweighed your talent") and on track incidents like Laguna Seca's corkscrewgate divided opinion, but again Valentino's reputation was unscathed. Even when he tried his hand at sorting out the unrideable Ducati and suffered humiliation, it was generally accepted that the blame lay with Ducati for failing to correct the handling problems. History tells us that Rossi went back to Yamaha, became competitive again, and so the problem wasn't the rider after all. The big moment, the turning point, was Sepang 2015 when Rossi's incredibly solid reputation was imo destroyed by one incident. In fact Rossi could have and should have said fuck all at the previous round in Philip Island, but by accusing Marquez of conspiring to help Lorenzo win the title, he gave Marquez a reason to do what he did at Sepang. I believe Marquez was totally out of order by riding the way he did but Rossi lost it, and his reputation by deliberately forcing him off the track in such a blatant manner. Many posters on banzai turned on Rossi after that, and far from being anti Rossi as Hopper makes out, i just think as race fans it was seen as a crazy move which not only cost him the title, but for me any respect i had for him. He was, and still is a legendary rider, but i lost a huge amount of respect for him that day. Sorry, but not way was Jerez 2005 over the ling, as Rossi most certainly didn't use Sete's bike as a brake. There were a couple of angles that clearly showed that Rossi stuck his bike in there, went ever so slightly wide, but was already turned and heading toward the apex when Sete ran into him. It was as much (if not more) Sete's fault than Rossi's, since Sete simply mucked up the re-overtake. It's a situation you will see 5 times (or more) in just about every 125/Moto3 race, where the guy who led into the corner simply accelerates back through up the inside of the guy who came in hot and went a little wide. As for Laguna, I've said a few times that what Rossi did there was wrong, and he should have had some sort of penalty (or have given the spot back immediately, which he sort of did, but not intentionally). Rossi cut the track there, plain and simple. He had both tires beyond the curbs and in the dirt, and that should be seen as an infraction. Everything else he did during that super entertaining race was fine (duffing up Stoner who was something like a full second quicker on raw pace), but that one move at the corkscrew was not OK, and I was similarly disgusted by the fact that people were actually using it to confirm Rossi's legendary status. He shouldn't have been encouraged for that. He also looked at little sheepish to me when he first arrived in parc firme after that race, thinking he might get admonished, but instead everyone was fawning over him so he just embraced it. The end result, of course, was MM doing the same thing a few years later (even further off track and seemingly more deliberately), and everyone just shrugging their shoulders. The less said about Sepang, at this point, the better, since most of us will never be in agreement. Suffice to say that responsibility also lies with Dorna/race direction, for letting things get to that point. It was pretty clear that Rossi came to the conclusion that he had to take matters into his own hands, because nobody else was going to tell the kid to calm the fuck down.
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