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Post by philthewindsurfer on Feb 26, 2023 9:44:08 GMT
www.motogp.com/en/news/2017/09/07/desmosedici-stradale-a-v4-for-ducati-sport-bikes/238912#:~:text=Bore%20x%20stroke%2081%20x%2053.5%20mmIf I have got this right: Ducati wanted a Motogp bike on the road, they have talked about it for years. Based on the MotoGP bike, they built the road bike. V4. Whilst developing the race version as well. The bore of the road bike is the same as the Panigale & MotoGP bike - 81mm, which is the maximum bore allowed in MotoGP. To make it more rideable on the road, they did some tweaks, but mostly they increased the stroke to 53.5mm, to make it produce power/torque at lower revs. Peak power on the road bike at 13,000rpm. You couldnt produce a bike revving to 16,500rpm for the road, it would be mentally nuts. The 1099cc is probably nuts as it is. My 2003 Suzuki K3 was nuts on the road. The longer stroke made it 1099cc, to large for WSBK. To make it under 1000cc, the 'easy' way would be to reduce the bore, like Yamaha did with my Fazer8, based on the R1 engine. You need to change the cylinder head, keep the same length of the conrod/cylinder block. But Ducati chose to reduce the stroke, made it back to the MotoGP size, the bore size is still 81mm. So its 81 * 48.4mm. Was that due to the complex V4 desmosedici head perhaps? They could keep all the info from the MotoGP bike, like the article says: Using the same bore as the Desmosedici GP engine means both power units share nearly identical in-engine fluid dynamics (i.e. on valves, intake ducts and throttle bodies, right where the power is produced).So what Ducati have effectively done, is put their MotoGP engine in a road going chassis. How did they get away with that? To compare against Yamaha & Kawasaki bore & stroke R1 79 & 50.9 Kwak 77 & 56 Ducati 81 & 48.4 I guess the others need to follow a similar development path.
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Post by philthewindsurfer on Feb 26, 2023 10:45:45 GMT
www.fim-moto.com/en/documents/view/2023-sbk-ss-ss300-world-championships-regulations2.4.2.2 Balancing CalculationLooks like after 3 meetings they might adjust the rev limit by 250rpm if someone is running away with it. If its dry. Superpole races dont count. 2.4.3 Concessions and Super Concession’sAlso, every 3 meetings, say if BMW dont finish in the top 5, and Ducati win 4 dry full length races, then BMW can add a go faster part that they have declared previously, if they have have satisfied the criteria in the section: 2.4.3.1 Concession and Super Concession, Token “Performance Calculator”.Trying to get my head around all that made my eyes bleed. Given that BMW dont seem to have any go faster parts over the winter, a waste of time?
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Post by philthewindsurfer on Feb 26, 2023 12:00:32 GMT
That said;
2020 Redding/Davies were beaten by Rea.
2021 Redding/Rinaldi were beaten by Toprak & Rea.
So its not just the bike.
Bautista would have run away with the title in 2019 if he hadnt kept crashing round 5 onwards. 2022 won by 72 points.
It does make a nonsense about WSBK being a production series.
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Post by mekon on Feb 26, 2023 17:56:52 GMT
It's never really been a 'proddy' series since Honda brought the R30/45 and they needed unobtanium parts to really fly. Apparently the Aprilia wasn't that great unless you had Biaggi spec factory parts.
The problem is now the bike 'racetrack to showroom' wars are sort of over now. When I started riding it was bigger, faster, more, more for year on year and all the manufacturers wanted in. Then again the fireblade sold big for years despite not being part of any race series.
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Post by Diego the toe clipper on Feb 27, 2023 7:09:58 GMT
I have to admit that when Rinaldi got a "comfortable" podium, I did wonder to what extent that may have been facilitated by Kawasaki and Yamaha so that the fingers can be pointed at the bike as having an advantage.
Surely these conversations take place behind closed doors. Last year it looked like it was the Bautista / Ducati combo which ran away with it, but the combined weight argument didn't work. Maybe this year it needs to be different so that "action" is taken at rule book level against the dominating bike?
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Post by philthewindsurfer on Feb 27, 2023 17:21:33 GMT
I suppose its the FIM who set the price cap of €44,000 and 500 units worldwide which is the minimum sold limit who control these things.
R1 £18,700 R1M homologation special £24,450
ZX-10R £16,569 ZX-10RR homologation special £24,799
Ducati V4 1099 £22,295 V4R £38,995.
I wonder if Ducati break even on 500 units at the price. I guess not as they only make 500. Does their 998cc help sell the cheaper 1099cc road version?
I can see why Honda (for a time), Suzuki and Aprilia dropped out.
Guess its now up to the others to make a loss leader hyper-bike in a shrinking market.
Honda and Yamaha have done it in the past, for a while.
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Post by philthewindsurfer on Feb 27, 2023 17:45:14 GMT
Do BMW make a homologation special? Their 'basic' model is £17,150.
I think any kit parts the factory team use have to be made available to non-factory teams at some point, for a fair price.
Maybe thats why they seem to be going backwards.
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Post by mekon on Feb 27, 2023 18:05:30 GMT
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Post by mekon on Feb 27, 2023 18:08:28 GMT
Back in the days of Group B rally cars there were all manner of scams going on to pretend the car had sold 200 units. Easiest one was to just pre-register them all. I sure one of the group B cars only literally sold a handful of the supposed road going versions.
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Post by Diego the toe clipper on Feb 27, 2023 21:37:50 GMT
Aren't the Foggy Petronas bikes all in a shed somewhere?
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Post by mekon on Feb 27, 2023 22:03:03 GMT
Twiggy once claimed a lot of the project went into building someone a fancy house
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Post by mekon on Feb 28, 2023 8:05:02 GMT
Speaking of homologation it appears Mackenzie gets no points as the bike isn't homologated.
May as well start running readers specials
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Post by Diego the toe clipper on Feb 28, 2023 8:11:36 GMT
I understand that the HRC Supersport points are on hold until after Mandalika after the other manufacturers voted to let Honda homologate retrospectively.
So once homologated, they will get the points.
Surprised one of the others didn't veto that, but they didn't apparently.
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Post by philthewindsurfer on Feb 28, 2023 8:29:26 GMT
As Clipper says, he gets them provisionally. www.worldsbk.com/en/results%20statistics10th MacKenzie 11 points 18th Norrodin 5 points On Saturday Toseland was saying on Eurosport it wasnt the import/customs/logistics casing the issue but the fact that Honda dont sell the bike in Japan, USA and Europe (all 3). The rumours of import/customs/logistics were fake. I dont know where he got that from (perhaps he reads the same sites as Mekon). The rules actually say 1 of Asia, USA and Europe, not all 3 continents. This was issued by the FIM on Friday www.fim-moto.com/en/news/news-detail/article/statement-on-honda-ssp600-cbr600rrThe FIM and Dorna WSBK organization would like to provide the following clarification on the situation of the HONDA WorldSSP (CBR600RR) machines due to race at Phillip Island and Mandalika in the first two rounds of the 2023 FIM Supersport World Championship.
As a result of a logistical and customs problem, it was impossible for Honda to present the engine (and the other mandatory parts) in time to proceed with the FIM Phase 2 Homologation. Although the FIM Phase 2 Homologation is in progress it is very unlikely that this motorcycle can be homologated in time.
The FIM Permanent Bureau has decided to grant a waiver to Honda provided that all manufacturers involved in the 2023 FIM Supersport World Championship agree.
The unanimous agreement confirmed today by the MSMA will allow Honda and its " Petronas MIE-MS Racing HONDA WorldSSP" team to participate in the first two rounds of the 2023 Championship.
All points scored by the MIE-MS Racing HONDA SSP600 team will remain pending until phase 2 of the FIM homologation is completed at the latest before the first European round to be held in Assen from April 21-23. |
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Post by philthewindsurfer on Feb 28, 2023 8:54:16 GMT
Surprised one of the others didn't veto that, but they didn't apparently. I dont think they are that worried, the CBR is an old bike. Ducati wouldnt object, they have got away with effectively a MotoGP engine in WSBK. Also a 955cc V2 in WSS against 600cc inline 4s. In the Foggy era, they had to race against 750cc inline 4s with their 916/996 until they changed the rules in 2003. |
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