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Post by elnoodle the reasonable on Nov 23, 2022 16:37:32 GMT
So, a panel of primarily English judges at the supreme Court in London has ruled that Scotland needs permission from Westminster, also in London, to hold an independence referendum in Scotland even though the Scottish devolved government has a clear electoral mandate to hold such a vote.
Defeat for the Scottish government? Hardly. Nicola Sturgeon has played a blinder here. She knew what the outcome would be and has allowed English judges the opportunity to deny democracy to Scotland and confirm once and for all that the United Kingdom is not a union of consent but is the political equivalent of a forced marriage.
The Tories should be squirming over this but I suspect that they're far too insular to realise that they've been played. Support for Scottish independence will only increase now.
Even Joe Lycett would be impressed.
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Post by pantah on Nov 23, 2022 18:22:56 GMT
Tories have said that we don't need another divisive referendum and need to concentrate on getting out of the current mess created by the cunts who caused it.
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Post by elnoodle the reasonable on Nov 23, 2022 18:46:36 GMT
English Tory Theresa May got up in Parliament afterwards and proceeded to lecture the Scottish nation, where she doesn't fucking live, on what's best for us. Utterly tone fucking deaf.
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Post by philthewindsurfer on Nov 24, 2022 16:32:30 GMT
So, a panel of primarily English judges at the supreme Court in London has ruled that Scotland needs permission from Westminster, also in London, to hold an independence referendum in Scotland even though the Scottish devolved government has a clear electoral mandate to hold such a vote. Panel of 5 judges formed the supreme court for this. There were 2 English, 1 Scottish, 1 Northern Irish* and 1 Welsh. English judges 2 rest of the Union 3. Given the population of the countries of the Union, I would say that is a fair representation. The decision was unanimous. So 100% of the 60 % of the non English judges on the panel said there is nothing in the current laws to say that the Scottish Parliament can call a legal referendum off their own back. They were looking at the laws in the Scotland Act 1998, not making the laws up themselves. I would say that 1998 Act was a bit useless with regards to independence issues. If Sturgeon asked the supreme court to say whether this act gave her the powers to call a referendum, then they said no it doesnt, including 1 Scottish and Welsh judge, plus maybe a NI one as well. Sounded like a pointless exercise to me. I do think that if the current polls on Indy ref#2 were more in favour of independence, then the UK parliament might grant another referendum. Currently the NOs are leading the YESs. Sales & Rose English Stephens Northern Irish - *assumption, he does do most of the NI law stuff, cant find a specific he is English, just British. Even if he was born in English to English parents, it doesnt take away the fact that the Scottish and Welsh judges also agreed on the verdict. Lloyd Jones Welsh Reed (President of panel) Scottish www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2022-0098-judgment.pdf |
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Post by mekon on Nov 24, 2022 19:05:18 GMT
Would you be offended if the English were given a independence referendum?
If you want an independent Scotland I'd try that angle instead as you'll probably get what you want first go.
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Post by elnoodle the reasonable on Nov 24, 2022 19:25:35 GMT
I used some artistic license to create a dramatic ambiance Phil. The point is that there is a majority of MSPs in Holyrood that were elected on an independence mandate (SNP & Greens) and we still need to go begging to London for permission to decide our own future. It's not a union of consent and yesterday's ruling simply laid that bare. Imagine the fucking uproar if the French were able to veto Brexit?
A poll yesterday put support for independence at 50% and opposition at 33% although, to be completely fair, I'm not sure the sample size was particularly large.
The Tories are so unpopular in Scotland that their leader wasn't even able to get voted into Holyrood outright and could only get in on a list ticket yet these are the cunts we need to fucking beg for permission? Can you see the problem? Theresa fucking May telling us what's good for us? Doubt she could find Inverness on a map but ready with tone deaf advice she wasn't asked for. Not one of these arrogant cunts gives the slightest fuck about anything North of the HS2 route until we have the fucking gall to want out.
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Post by elnoodle the reasonable on Nov 24, 2022 19:28:10 GMT
Would you be offended if the English were given a independence referendum? Not in the slightest but I expect you'd have plenty to say if you needed our permission to hold one. |
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Post by philthewindsurfer on Nov 24, 2022 20:27:26 GMT
I used some artistic license to create a dramatic ambiance Phil. The point is that there is a majority of MSPs in Holyrood that were elected on an independence mandate (SNP & Greens) and we still need to go begging to London for permission to decide our own future. It's not a union of consent and yesterday's ruling simply laid that bare. Imagine the fucking uproar if the French were able to veto Brexit? A poll yesterday put support for independence at 50% and opposition at 33% although, to be completely fair, I'm not sure the sample size was particularly large. T Artistic license = making shit up and/or not bothering to find out. Its the sort of stuff Sturgeon wanted people to circulate. English in London stopping Scottish independence. You've been played. Its a tactic SNP are using to stir up more support. She should employ Dominic Cummings, he was good at that shit. www.thenational.scot/news/23145882.poll-says-50-scots-vote-snp-de-facto-indyref-election/In the wake of the judges’ decision, broadcaster Channel 4 and their polling partners asked 1006 Scottish voters – 412 of whom were SNP voters in 2019 – how they would vote in such a situation.
Some 50% said yes, 33% said no, and 16% said they didn’t know or preferred not to say.
C4 polling partner was "Simple pricing fast results" pollsters findoutnow.co.uk/pricingI would be waiting for the more established pollsters giving their results. Brexit was partly the result of the Tory party ignoring plights of people suffering and them giving an anti establishment backlash. Now we have people suffering due to the various recent world events. I would be wary of any politician promising sunny uplands. At least the SNP have come up with more ideas on the future of Scotland's currency etc than they did last time. The French couldnt veto Brexit as there was nothing in EU law. That Scottish Act was done under Labour not the Tories btw. The GFI & NI Protocol has caused a lot of problems with NI/rest of UK border control. Imagine the problems with the Scottish/English border. Hard border, customs control, there would be no easy fix. What is the SNP plan for that? On the old forum I said if I was a Scot I would vote Yes, but now Im not so sure. |
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Post by beefus on Nov 25, 2022 9:52:45 GMT
Having a referendum anytime soon would be foolish, people have more pressing things to worry about. Though it'd be interesting to see what would happen if NO won again, given that one of the main reasons for calling IndyRef2 was circumstances changing due to Brexit, would a 3rd referendum then be called for?....when does it end?.
Having said that, I think YES would win this time...albeit by a whisker.
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Post by Diego the toe clipper on Nov 25, 2022 12:06:48 GMT
So Indyref2 is based on Brexit?
Are we really sure that the full and lasting effects of Brexit are actually known? I personally don't think it is going to be good for the UK, but even I'm prepared to be convinced that I am wrong, but it will take time to prove the real impact.
If Indyref2 is called for now, let's stop pretending its Brexit related.
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Post by beefus on Nov 25, 2022 14:28:57 GMT
So Indyref2 is based on Brexit? Are we really sure that the full and lasting effects of Brexit are actually known? I personally don't think it is going to be good for the UK, but even I'm prepared to be convinced that I am wrong, but it will take time to prove the real impact. If Indyref2 is called for now, let's stop pretending its Brexit related. It was a "once in a generation" referendum (if Salmond's words are taken literally), but Brexit pulled Scotland out of the EU against it's wishes....Scotland voted Remain. |
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Post by Eddie The Bastard on Nov 25, 2022 21:10:19 GMT
Its all part of the David Cameron shitshow.
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